This discussion was originally scheduled to take place in the seminar space of Pear Museum, Los Angeles, but – due to Americo Burgheim’s self-enforced, conceptually-crucial confinement to the current venue of his travelling show, ‘Certified’ – Pear Journal co-editor, Peter Krosch, and artists, David Destino and Sol Zimmerman took the trip to Pear Art Center (P.A.C.), San Francisco to catch up with their captive colleague. A full, unedited transcript of the informal exchanges between Krosch, Destino and Zimmerman during their AirPear® DeluxeReturn® flight to San Francisco will be published by Pear Press® and available soon in a PearBooks® store near you.

Peter Krosch: When I was asked [by Pear C.E.O., Kenneth Mader] to do a feature on the role of the artist as self-promoter and the function of self-promotion as an integral part of the contemporary artwork, I immediately thought of you.

Sol Zimmerman: Cool. [laughs]

David Destino: [winks] Good job.

Americo Burgheim: …

PK: In fact, I thought immediately of Americo and David and, after some contemplation, decided that your work, Sol, offers something somehow related, yet slightly removed, from the overt promotional drive inherent in the work of the luminaries to your left. Americo’s involvement in the groundbreaking ‘Pear Africa’ project has been well documented1 and his current touring exhibition, ‘Certified’ – which we’ll, no doubt, talk about later – is causing quite a stir in theoretical and psychoanalytic circles alike. David, of course, needs no introduction.

SZ: Well, it’s a pleasure to be in such esteemed company. [laughs]

PK: David, your reputation precedes you; we are all aware of your accomplishments, so let’s turn our attention to your plans for the future and, in particular, that much anticipated third solo show at Pear Museum.

DD: Before we talk about the show, I’d like to take this opportunity to say a few words about digital art. Digital art is dead; it’s been dead since I proclaimed it so, in ’22, and I don’t expect a miraculous resurrection. It’s time to forget about digital art completely and look to a post-digital future. Digital art is a dismembered monster and now is the time to dispense with its body parts and forget it ever existed.

PK: And the show?

DD: My third solo show at Pear Museum, entitled ‘David Destino: Legend’, opens on October 5th. I couldn’t possibly reveal the content of the show at this stage but, let me assure you, it’s gonna be something special. Think ‘Thaw’ plus ‘David Destino: A Retrospective’ then multiply the result by ten. Watch this space.

SZ: I’m really looking forward to the show and may I also say how intrigued I am by the way you’ve dealt with this digital art debacle… I mean, how you’ve exposed it for what it really is. [laughs]

DD: As far as I’m concerned, the case is closed, but perhaps Americo would like to go into further detail with regard to digital art’s post mortem…

AB: …

PK: Obviously you’d be well advised to remain tight-lipped about the content of the updated volume until its official launch by Pear Press in June, Americo, so let’s talk about your current project, ‘Certified’.

AB: …

PK: ‘Certified’ is undoubtedly one of the most ambitious projects you have embarked on to date. We join you in P.A.C., San Francisco, on the seventh and penultimate leg of the exhibition’s tour. Perhaps you could talk about the initial thinking behind the project and how your perception of it has changed, if at all, during its realization.

DD: Did you touch my leg under the table?

SZ: No. [laughs]

AB: The project started so long ago that the initial thought process doesn’t seem important, but I must say I’m feeling very comfortable with it now. This corner of the gallery is particularly comforting – I must have been here for several days now. Wade, the shop assistant, has been bringing me snacks and things, which is very kind of him... I feel comfortable with him – sometimes he sits for a while. Do feel free to sit for a while yourselves.

[Destino excuses himself]

PK: It’s great to hear you’re so satisfied with how the project has developed. Did you ever imagine, when you made the decision to go through with the work, that you would become so engrossed with the concept and embrace this hermitic existence? I mean, presumably this action is a metaphor for the artist’s dependency on the comforts of the artworld and his supposed reluctance to look further into the world for new horizons, new challenges. As I understand it, the project is, essentially, an ironic gesture and perhaps something some people thought you wouldn’t actually execute. I find it quite remarkable that you’re still here, in the museum, after 246 days.

AB: As I said, the initial concept is unimportant. What’s important to me is that I’m enjoying my work. I’m comfortable seeing visitors but, obviously, only in this defined space. I feel in control here – I feel like I could live for years in this space, happily seeing visitors and working. The plan is to take this section of the gallery with me to the museum in L.A. for the final leg of the tour. Joel’s been working on an industrial version of his translocation software for this purpose.

PK: But the tour’s conclusion won’t be in the museum – it’s scheduled to be part of the ‘From the Ground Up’ open-air festival on the streets of downtown L.A.

AB: Is it really?

PK: The posters are everywhere: ‘Burgheim’s Back’ and ‘Return of the Pearodigal Son.’

AB: Really?

[Destino returns to his seat]

DD: Danila’s in the restroom, performing one of her cross-dressing toiletry-vending interventions. I said perhaps she could join the discussion.

PK: How fabulous – I can’t believe I didn’t think to invite her in the first place. Sol, would you go and ask her through…

SZ: Sure. [laughs]

[Zimmerman excuses himself]

PK: …

DD: …

AB: Is it really?

[Zimmerman returns to the table]

SZ: She says she must continue her performance but we’re welcome to join her through there. [laughs]

PK: What a radical gesture; an academic discussion in the restroom of P.A.C! Would you care to join us, gents?

[Krosch, Destino and Zimmerman join Mkenya in the gentlemen’s restroom while Burgheim remains in the gallery with Pear Hands-Free Two-in-One Mic and Headset Device IV®]

PK: Danila, it’s great to see you! We were just saying how wonderful it would be if you would join our discussion. We’ve been investigating the subject of self-publicity and its importance in one’s art practice. I hope you don’t mind my saying that you’re no stranger to publicity – Something for the Weekend, Sir?, for example, is the single most controversial piece of work by an artist this century. Self-publicity seems to hold a similar position in your work as it does in the practices of both Americo – with whom you worked in preparation for Something for the Weekend – and David, whose work I’m sure you’re familiar with. Also, let me introduce you to Sol, who has been invited along and, although it has emerged that his use – or otherwise – of self-publicity as a tool bears little resemblance to that of the aforementioned luminaries, I feel he provides a perfect foil.

SZ: [laughs]

Danila Mkenya: Let me first refute your interpretation of the use of self-publicity in my practice. To liken my work to that of the aforementioned luminaries is ridiculous. While their attention-seeking antics are superficial, empty and self-satisfying, I draw attention to myself and my body in order to highlight culture, gender, race and sexuality, issues specific to the context in which I place myself for my performances. I find your analogy absurd and insulting.

AB: Really?

DD: I find it insulting that Pete dared to state that Something for the Weekend is the most controversial piece of work of the century. I could forgive him if it was merely a convenient line by which to ease you [Mkenya] into the conversation, but…you don’t really believe that do you, Pete?

PK: Well, the Cyber-Virgin series also caused quite a stir but it’s very hard to compare such disparate works.

DM: Please, gentlemen, bickering over notoriety ratings is not going to get us very far and, anyway, since when have David and my works been ‘disparate’ in your eyes, Peter? I fear you haven’t thought this whole discussion thing through.

PK: I do apologize if my research on the particulars of your practice is somewhat unpolished but please remember I’ve only had the short time since you joined us – or, indeed, we joined you – to download relevant material using my Pear Online Extrasensory Perception Software®. I trust you’ll waste no time in setting the record straight.

DD: I’m terribly sorry to interrupt but I’m in some distress here. I’ve been feeling stabbing pains all over my body for several days now. It’s been torturous – phantom pains in parts of my body I never knew existed. Recently, the stabbing has turned to a sensation not dissimilar to that caused by something or someone brushing against me, even caressing me. [grimaces]

DM: Is this another one of your pathetic publicity stunts, Destino?

DD: I really must go.

[Destino excuses himself]

DM: Pathetic.

PK: …

SZ: … [laughs]

DM: Well, with one less ego to contend with, perhaps we can get down to some serious professional discussion, gentlemen. As you say, Peter, I’ve worked with Rico before and hold his early work in high regard. His initial contribution to my Weekend project was invaluable. Unfortunately, it seems Rico’s current state is not conducive to civilized discussion.

AB: Really?

DM: Sol, although only vaguely familiar with your work, I am, nonetheless, intrigued. It seems you purposefully distance yourself and your practice from the mainstream artworld. Having said this, many of your projects attach themselves physically to established art events while purveying the conceptual antithesis of these particular events. For example, when Destino organized ‘Thaw’ which, to all intents and purposes, served to siphon Crèmegn’s old theoretical mainstream into Kirshenbaum’s new one, your low-budget brainchild Conversate – which ingeniously tapped electricity from the museum into your parasitic chamber of dissent – made a genuine attempt to broaden critical discourse beyond Crèmegn’s doxa.

SZ: Sure. [laughs]

DM: Following the understated success of ‘Conversate’, you became involved with Op Cit Projects which, following Pear’s imminent acquisition of Art Vengeance, will be L.A.’s only artist-run gallery. Over the last five years, you’ve single-handedly fought to preserve Op Cit’s status as a not-for-profit organization. I wonder how long this status can remain, in the midst of this (mono-)corporate societal climate?

SZ: … [laughs]

DM: Op Cit is now a living monument to a bygone age when artists resisted financial pressure to comply with the art market, an age when artists made their own rules, made no compromises and acted with integrity. Notably, in this age there existed a phenomenon known as ‘the state’ which oversaw the coordination of culture, education and transport, amongst other things. Once upon a time, specific ‘state’ legislation existed to protect these services from the intervention of the private sector. There was even a time when artist-run galleries would receive state funding to finance their operations. As I understand it, in the latter days of state funding – by which time it had become possible for private companies to dictate the flow of public money – specific state funding became available to finance the participation of artist-run galleries in Pear Art Fair. Many of Op Cit’s contemporaries believed they had no option but to accept this state of affairs and, before too long, were accepting public money to operate as commercial galleries. The days I’m talking about are so deep in the past that, to a PearUni® student of today, the concept that an artist-run gallery like yours exists, let alone eschews the Pear Art Fair, is as unimaginable as the idea that Gèlbert E. Crèmegn’s estranged right index finger has developed a brain and is directing Valerie Kirshenbaum’s every move from within her stomach. I admire your resistance and wish Op Cit all the best but, in all honesty, is your situation really sustainable? I mean, how long can it last?

PK: If I may interject, I must confess I’m not familiar with the concept of ‘the state’ or, indeed, any of the fantastical ideas you’ve brought to the table, Danila. More to the point, I fear we are veering away from the central issue of self-publicity and, given the fact that we have only a limited period of time before Sol and I need to catch our AirPear® DeluxeReturn®, I would propose that we begin to wrap things up.

SZ: Actually, I think I’ll stay here and continue this discussion with Danila. [laughs]

PK: What do you mean, discussion? You’ve not contributed a word…and anyway, what’s with the laugh?

DM: The laugh is a sophisticated communicative tool aimed at putting fellow conversators at their ease, with a view to encouraging the uninhibited airing of views; a discursive lubricant if you will, and just one string to the bow that is the immensely complex and challenging art practice of Sol Zimmerman.

AB: Really?

SZ: Thank you very much.

[Krosch laughs and excuses himself]

The latter exchanges, between Mkenya and Zimmerman (and Burgheim), were not deemed suitable for inclusion in this journal. An interpretation of their interaction will, however, be published by Pear Press later this year on the occasion of the opening of Pear Projects’ inaugural exhibition at Op Pear Cit. A monolog detailing the last mutterings of Krosch’s subconscious during his AirPear® DeluxeReturn® will be available in the form of a free pamphlet (when you buy two copies of the transcript of the outward journey).

Americo Burgheim’s ‘Certified’ exhibition is currently on show at P.A.C., San Francisco, until May 20th, when it travels to L.A. as part of the ‘From the Ground Up’ new media festival.

David Destino’s Cyber Virgin sculpture series and new installation work Pearcine are included in ‘Re-Launched: The Pearmanent Collection’ at Pear Museum, L.A. His auto-biography The Genius of Destino is available in all PearBooks® stores.

Danila Mkenya is shortlisted for the Pear Prize for Young Art, 2023, on show at Pear Museum of Contemporary Art (P.M.o.C.A), L.A. until June17th. Her work is included in ‘Take Two’ at P.A.C., San Francisco, until June 23rd.

Documentation of Sol Zimmerman’s Conversate is included in ‘Re-Launched: The Pearmanent Collection’. His book 20 Years of Art Vengeance will be published by Pear Press later this year.

Peter Krosch was co-editor of Pear.